epcLIVE Grand Openning / Coffee House

Nov 20 1995

[sherwood] ______________________W E L C O M E_____________________
[sherwood] to the
[sherwood] EPCLIVE
[sherwood] Coffee House
[sherwood] __________________18:30 EST /23:30 GMT___________________ *sherwood* * hey loss...
[glazier]you there?
[glazier]jes' us chikkins?
*** sherwood has changed the topic on channel #EPCLIVE to Cafe
*** sherwood has changed the topic on channel #EPCLIVE to Cafe and chickens
*** Glazier has changed the topic on channel #EPCLIVE to cafechickens
[glazier]hey ...
[sherwood] what
[glazier]did you ever type /who -here and then it scrolls for ten minutes?
[sherwood] yes...
[glazier]is there a way around that?
[sherwood] i haven't figured out yet how to show just who's on this channel
[glazier]oh, that's /who -here #epclive
[glazier]u dere?
*** lbd (^wldwww.i@www.ims.csuohio.edu) has joined channel #EPCLIVE
[sherwood] ______________________W E L C O M E_____________________
[sherwood] to the
[sherwood] EPCLIVE
[sherwood] Coffee House
[sherwood] __________________18:30 EST /23:30 GMT___________________
[sherwood] Hello Luigi
[glazier]hey lugiu!
[lbd] greetings all--i can't believe this is working
[sherwood] I've been workin (and laggin) on the ...
[glazier]it works, yay!
[sherwood] Beginning to feel, like, international almost...
[lbd] 3 of us so far, kind of north (am.) coastish...
[glazier]wow, there's quite a lag time here, no?
[glazier]ah middle coastish, no?
[glazier]mebbe change de name to greatlakeslive
*** Eryque (~gleaeri@host129.net166.iit.edu) has joined channel #epclive
[glazier]Greetings Eryque
[sherwood] well Creeley will be glad to here we kept it local, at least
[Eryque] Geshundeit, i almost missed this. I forgot to convert eastern to central time...
[glazier]Eryque, whre are you logging in from?
*** Jordan (^wldbmorr@bmorrow.dialup.access.net) has joined channel #EPCLIVE
[Eryque] I'm in chicago.
[glazier]Well, we should list all time zones to be fair
[glazier]Welcome Jordan!
[glazier]______________________W E L C O M E_____________________
[Jordan] Hail!
[glazier]Jordan, where are you logging in from?
[Jordan] NYC
[glazier]Pretty amazing, eh?
[sherwood] This is great,
[Jordan] Good grief. I I think I'm being relayed through Oklahoma
[glazier]How would you know?
[sherwood] except the picture isn't working
[Jordan] (Just like the New York School!)
[Jordan] Nice to meet you, Loss
[Eryque] I'll tell how amazing and great this is...I'm cooking mostacolli while we're talking....
[glazier]Nice to meet you too!
*** Signoff: lbd (Read error to lbd[skyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu]: EOF from client)
[glazier]ooooooo we lost luigi
[sherwood] oh oh...
[glazier]he got a "read error"
[Jordan] he'll be back
[sherwood] maybe we better call the convention to order before we
[sherwood] lose a quorum
[glazier](then silence)
[sherwood] [message relayed from Martin Spinelli] what is mostacolli?
[sherwood] Well, since presumably everyone here has figured out IRC basics...
[glazier]msg jordan but a little chaotic
[sherwood] maybe we should do some collective brainstorming on things to use it for...
[sherwood] Loss and I had thought of four different types of happenings:
[sherwood] Events, Exchanges, Open Field (collaborative improv), and Coffee House
[Jordan] oh renga all night long! LOL
[glazier]well, Open Field is like renga ...
[glazier]but without using the word renga ...
[glazier]if that makes sense
[glazier]but tonight would be coffee shop, right ken....
*** luigi (^wldwww.i@www.ims.csuohio.edu) has joined channel #EPCLIVE
[sherwood] %$#&^%#@*+R E N G A*&@^&%R*&#*()$#
[glazier]which was that we re going talk about this space?
[Eryque] Open Field is probably a better term than renga, i don't know how many people are still deleting rengas on sight....
[glazier]Luigi, we missed you!
[sherwood] yeah, coffee shop, shop talk
[luigi] i think if you don't keep talking, you get dumped...
[glazier]luigi, i'll have to sit here some time by myself silent and see... ] perhaps it doesn's support meditation ... or listening ... that's why they call it
[sherwood] Any ideas for how an Open Field might work
[Jordan] okay.
[sherwood] should there be something agreed on prior to...
[Eryque] Occasionally this thing is hanging for minutes at a time, is that my local setup, or is eveyrone else experiencing the same problem?
[luigi] no lurking alloud
[sherwood] or is that contrary to the projective?
[Eryque] Or is everyone playing oppossum?
[glazier]Luigi, ONLY lurking aLOUD
[glazier]E, no it haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaangs
[glazier]This is a busy time
[glazier]but we are on this time because
[glazier]people from both Europe and NZ could join
[glazier]but they aren't here methinks
[sherwood] As I logged on, noted that over 3000 users on undernet alone
*** Signoff: Jordan (Read error to Jordan[wildcat.ecn.uoknor.edu]: EOF from client)
[luigi] any composition process (open, like renga) demands an open reading practice...
[glazier]how so l?
[sherwood] Well renga had/has a kind of structure, ie momentum at least in its form
[sherwood] for better or worse.
[glazier]right but IMPOSED that was the problem ...
[glazier]it got mailed to you whether or not.
[glazier]This form is better for Open Field because
[glazier]you choose to be here...
[glazier]also teh exchanges are more synchronous
[glazier]luigi how do you mean an open reading process?
[sherwood] And it spiralled
[sherwood] like an ill-tempered chain-letter
[glazier]yes chain letter when some poeple on the block had miniscule mail boxes
[glazier]For the Open Field,
*** boza (...) has joined channel #epclive
[sherwood] But there also are rules to the form, however loosely held to...
[glazier]I think it would be ok to start wtih a line or something
[Eryque] Althought I see problems with recording a renga on the irc, and how to sort out conversation between the contributers and lines posted to the poem.
[glazier]E, this creates a file with everyone's name in it...
[glazier]Like a play
[sherwood] or like a court transcript
[sherwood] which may or may not be held 'against' you
[Eryque] I didn't know that happened... does this file have any capacity limits?
[glazier]You set the capacity
[glazier]Ken has plans to make some of these files available
[glazier]on the epc
[glazier]like works of compositon, correcto?
*** Signoff: luigi (Read error to luigi[skyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu]: EOF from client)
*** misery (lki@Bunce3-03.rowan.edu) has joined channel #EPCLIVE
[glazier]poor luigi ... i wonder if ...
[glazier]hello misery
[misery] hi.....
[boza] Why did Luigi leave? Is that his real name do you think?
[misery] what is this channel?
[glazier]who -here #epclive
[Eryque] Groovy, then possibly we'd better watch our language on here.
[misery] yeah, but what does it mean?
[misery] clive barker?
[misery] eric clapton?
[misery] eric clapton live?
[misery] ok...i'll be on my way then....
*** misery has left channel #EPCLIVE
[sherwood] you set the capacity with the command:
[sherwood] '/set lastlog 999999' etc.
[Eryque] And it has just dawned on me how schizophrenic irc conversations can be...
[sherwood] at least, that's how it works with a unix based system.
[glazier]well, EVEYRBOYD doens't have to save the file
[glazier]we'll put it up and everyone can have it
[glazier]who was misery?
[glazier]my infraread personal aura dettector reads:
[Eryque] I think Misery was someone jsut browsing the channels on the server.
[glazier]that he was lki@Bunce3-03.rowan.edu (aristotle butterfield)
[sherwood] one question as to archiving...publishing the artifacts of
[sherwood] these exchanges would be wheter any editting should take place
[glazier]but ken, don't they have to be with us
*** luigi (^wldwww.i@www.ims.csuohio.edu) has joined channel #EPCLIVE
[boza] loves compay
[glazier]Hi luigi!
*** Desdemona (~chentrop@tc0-24.iea.com) has joined channel #EPCLIVE
[glazier]boza, where are your loggin ing from
[Eryque] Luigi, i just got a square on my screen from you, well said...
[boza] can you tell?
*** Desdemona has left channel #EPCLIVE
[boza] I have a ten sec. or more lag
[luigi] ?join #EPCLIVE
[glazier]As to ken's question about editing
[glazier]I think we could ask the participants later
*** ren1 (an370808@ts1-22.net.netbistro.com) has joined channel #EPCLIVE
[Eryque] I read (on a post to poetics?) that this channel wouldn't be seen by other people on the irc server, that we would have to know the name of the channel to get here, but #EPCLIVE is listed
[Eryque] with all the othehrs.
[luigi] ?whois
[glazier]so that makes it a big problem potentially ...
[ren1] hello
[glazier]at least momentarily
[Eryque] Luigi, try a slash in front of your commands, rather than a question mark.
[glazier]luigi, you are already on epclive!
*** Signoff: sherwood (Ping timeout for sherwood[orichalc.acsu.buffalo.edu])
*** sherwood: No such nick/channel
[glazier]wow, evern ken got pinged!
[Eryque] Hi Ren, where are you dialing from?
*** SherwoodK (sherwood@orichalc.acsu.buffalo.edu) has joined channel #EPCLive
[ren1] canada
[glazier]ken, what was getting pinged like?
[boza] too bad about Sherwood, eh?
[glazier]he's back but we're all lagged
[SherwoodK] my power is limited...
[glazier]ken, how could that be?
[Eryque] Poor guy, he seemed like he had such a great life ahead of him...
[SherwoodK] did i miss everything?
[Eryque] Then he got pinged!
[boza] I've always wanted to be lagged but now I'm not sure
[luigi] so an irc renga would be pretty "shuffled", eh?
[glazier]that's what happens when you mess with poetries!
[glazier]shuffling would be cool
[glazier]wow, imagine this for a question and answer session tho...
[SherwoodK] I think this problem may be an irc net overload...never seen more souls here
[glazier]i'd be asking luigi and he'd be askin Eryque ... and whew ...
[SherwoodK] right, the disjunction here, just like trying
[SherwoodK] to follow a weird thread on a listserv, that lags and spurts
[boza] this is kinda like one of those Roundtables at the Algonquin, eh?
[glazier]I'm wondering, unless we get a stampede from Europe ....
[glazier]maybe we sould be on later when there's less traffic
[ren1] where are u guy from
[SherwoodK] note how the 'medium' begins to define the form, as far as line length
[boza] Doroty Parker where are you now we need you
*** SherwoodK is now known as Dorothy
[glazier]that's only relative to the current praxis and the urge for those who wish immediate responses and intermediately deferred lag parameters to parlay haplessly
[glazier]Darn and I thought we'd stick to single identities
[ren1] what is a cafechicken?
[glazier]boza, where are you logged in from?
[Dorothy] this is just too slow for me boys...
[boza] what is medium: is this a seance?
*** Dorothy is now known as SherwoodK
[glazier]hey ren, how do you see the topic?
[luigi] but we're still all boys here, despite the name change?
*** Signoff: luigi (Read error to luigi[skyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu]: EOF from client)
[Eryque] It's been a couple minutes since i got a message, and I
[SherwoodK] look how luigi gets punished for that last comment....
[Eryque] am afraid i'll get bounced, so if i do, have a good night all!
[glazier]there goes luigi again
[glazier]Eryque if you get bounced come back again!
[SherwoodK] well it's a coffe house, but looked like no one was gonna show at first except the chickens and the wheelbarrow
[boza] I want to follow up on that last point.
[glazier]ren1 how did you hear aobut htis conversation?
[ren1] direct feed internet
[glazier]what's that?
[boza] can you tell where I am logged from?
[glazier]ren, and what part of canada?
*** jdavis (~jdavis@panix2.panix.com) has joined channel #EPCLIVE
[ren1] straight feed to internet no AOL or NETCOM to contend with
[jdavis] Hey, what'd I miss
[glazier]boza, no, i can guess but not very well because of my limited eastern usa knowledge of collegigate geogrphy
[glazier]oo jordan, welcome, you won't believe it ...
[Eryque] just us ducks here....
[glazier]someone just explained all the secrets of
[glazier]hypertexta nd zukofsy!
[jdavis] damn
[jdavis] post 'em to the list, eh?
[glazier]and did so in a single sonnet...
[jdavis] LOL
[glazier]with anagrams of all our names!
[glazier](i'm just kidding of course)
[glazier]jodran, welcome! where you logging in from?
[jdavis] Loss, I'm in from NYC via colorado this time
[glazier]does it tell you when you connect what route or ...
[glazier]are you trying different telnet addresses?
[ren1] canada via texas
[jdavis] yah.. through MIT then something else everytime
[glazier]ren1 yeah but where texas
[SherwoodK] anyone with irc experience know whether this kind of 'bumping' is typical?
[ren1] austin
[glazier]you mean getting flung off the bucking bronoc of conversatin?
[glazier]o ren, you're in austin?
[jdavis] I like the seepage and shuffle of conversation in irc
[Eryque] Ken, I've played some on here, and it seems that people are always getting bumped.
[ren1] no
[jdavis] or any other chat actually
[ren1] b.c. canada
[jdavis] the problem with this channel is--you have to keep talking
[SherwoodK] so then the bump is just part of the
[glazier]ren1, i'm confused
[glazier]ren1 so where did you hear aobut this event?
[ren1] my computer is going thru austin
[glazier]but ren, are you part of the list?
[SherwoodK] meter?
[SherwoodK] How is it that you have to keep talking? Do you really get bumped for not saying anything; that would be such a strange system.
[glazier]it would be strange
[glazier]like spanish 101
[glazier]but when you telnet if you sit there silent
[glazier]you get kicked off eventually, right
[ren1] this is first time to yhis bot
[glazier]its just how long can you sit here
[jdavis] when I telnet from Netscape I get thrown after two minutes
[Eryque] I"m not sure about the keep on talking bit...i've never had problems getting bumped because i'm not talking much. Usually i only get bumped because i'm talking too much!
[boza] can't see echo
[glazier]ah, i wouldn't do this thru netscape because of the overhead ... netscape has been less than perfect for a lot of activities, though it's really terrific
[glazier]echoe: really been terrific ] Eryque, you've never been bumped for talking too much have you?
[ren1] i'm using mIRC32
[SherwoodK] I was hoping someone from Britain would sign on, so we could here about the BBC interview with Princess Di tonight.
[Eryque] Loss, only when someone doesn't like what i'm talking about! You can kick people off, although it mighht take some special priv levels.
[SherwoodK] But I guess they're really lagging from the Island.
[glazier]laggin from the island (?)
[SherwoodK] We've given #EPCLIVE over to a robot, so that no one gets kicked off...
[glazier]so Eryque, you've used irc a lot?
[SherwoodK] Lagging from the island, still glued to their BBC broadcasts, etc.
[Eryque] Not a lot, Loss. Used to play some, just enough to know that i like listservs and bbs' better. Irc has it's purposes for sure though....
[boza] what purposes?
[ren1] the royal family is like a soap opera these days
[Eryque] And actually, there's an idea, POETICS bbs...
[glazier]how would a bbs be different Enyque?
[SherwoodK] Well, with an active listserv, there's a kind of extended lag though the effect, like jetlag is here more pronounced.
[glazier](sorry your name is tuff on the keyboard)
[glazier]yea ken but people can write more leisurely tracts and proclomations
[glazier]here it's whizzzzle out the fingers an' inta de ears!
[glazier]Eryque, you still dere?
[SherwoodK] But here's a more active struggle to get heard, even just to stay connected.
[Eryque] the bbs' i've used have different "rooms" or "forums" that you can post to. Less schizoid, and you can post private messages to each other.
[jdavis] well you can post private messages here
[glazier]its like climbing up a sledding hill (Buffalo reference)
[SherwoodK] Harder to talk to yourself in IRC, than a listerv. Here I've got to try, or it seems like I SHOULD, to get you or him or her a line of thought.
[glazier]so by bbs you mean moo?
[jdavis] sounds like a local moo
[SherwoodK] Loss, don't get local now...
[glazier]and MOST importantly, don't you have to pay extra phone charges for a bbs
[Eryque] I.E. We could set up a renga room, so only those interested could go (you get to choose what room syou attend)
[glazier]hence you couldn't really do poor poets from all over the world?
[jdavis] what's everybody's fear of renga about!
[glazier]It's not a fear of renga. It's just that there should have been a renga list.
[jdavis] lock all the renga people in one room, eh?
[Eryque] I've never used a moo, and there's plenty of internet bbs'. they don't have to be modem...
[SherwoodK] Yeah, but Loss, the poor poets will never be here...
[glazier]A lot of people have to pay per message and were getting swallowed by the volume of it.
[glazier]Or, better yet ... and think of this ...
[jdavis] kenneth--poor as in economics?
[jdavis] or poor as in les pauvres
[glazier]what would be best for renga would be that you could see the poem...
[glazier]mail a line ...
[SherwoodK] the poor poor poet
[SherwoodK] didn't even know it
[glazier]then watch the line be added.
[Eryque] And I agree with Loss, its nothing personal against the renga, but i thought it was getting out of hand, and i just happened to have a discussion on the topic lately....
[jdavis] Loss, that's what I'm teaching my 6th & 9th graders to do
[jdavis] Eryque with whom
[Eryque] with whom the discussion, jordan?
[glazier]Jordan, that's terrific
[jdavis] yes
[jdavis] Loss, the mechanics of it are a little tricky still
[SherwoodK] Thinking about open field vs. renga; how would poem collab/improv here NOT be renga-like?
[jdavis] The 6th graders have been using computers for three years
[glazier]I think collab would be great here ...
[glazier]the reason is taht we all WANT to be here
[jdavis] http://mac94.ralphbunche.rbs.edu is the page for the school
[glazier]and so no one is stuffing ourmailboxes full
[glazier]jordan, excellent -- that's the hardest thing...
[boza] I thought the Renga, even its volume, was one of the more interesting things on Poes: _conceptually_
[glazier]to get across the concept of multiple authorship
[jdavis] oh no Loss, they're completely comfortable with collaboration
[glazier]boza, well people have different needs -- you ARE right -- but the space can't get swallowed up by one need
[boza] as a refusal of discursive "chat"
[Eryque] I'd suggest that you check out a couple of bbs' to see what i mean, although beware most of it is bored and hormonal college students goofing around! telnet to shadow.acc.iit.edu
*** ren1 has left channel #EPCLIVE
[boza] poets are not known for consideration, not nec. known, and in collab!!
[SherwoodK] what's the limit of a lag
[SherwoodK] Loss's last lag
[jdavis] poets are known?
[SherwoodK] "renga" seemed a license, like above, to skew away from the main poetics course.
[jdavis] which was productive, perhaps?
[glazier]well, i think at a certain point in their lives, people thought poetics was about _writing_ poetry so it answered that need
[SherwoodK] Some of the poets involved were quite 'attached' to it; others, who weren't, quit the list (in protest).
[boza] consideration is not nec. a characteristic of Poetics poets, and in collab poss less so
[jdavis] consideration, huh?
[jdavis] Kenneth, who quit?
[jdavis] gossip! please
[glazier]now jordan ...
[glazier]there were actually quite a few
[glazier]a couple went bankrupt, too
[glazier]and live in shelters outside of Albuquerque
[jdavis] in this day and age to pay by the K
[SherwoodK] Funny then, when community comes up in this relation, to think how easy a listserv skews into neighborhoods, with oppossing interests, content to 'do their own thing' despite the greater good, etc.
[glazier]others became morally bankrupt
[boza] as in "what is best for everyone in this space", which can be a problematic attidtude in any case
[glazier] no it should be there's room for a bit of everything in this space... [boza] who are you calling bankrupt? {joke}
[boza] but there isn't room for eveyone is there?
[glazier]so when the rolling stones move in next door it interrupts the flow of Mayberry
[SherwoodK] Well, loss, we part company on that one...
[SherwoodK] I mean, i agree to the notion...but the actuality is grim
[Eryque] I'll admit to being bankrupt! brother can you spare a ten-spot?
[glazier]howso SherwoodK
[glazier]anyway, mayberry was facetious
[jdavis] which actuality
[glazier]which maybe wasn't clear
[jdavis] the renga? as poetry? or as praxis...
[jdavis] LOL
[glazier]it's like the old Lenny Bruce routine
[glazier]'we got a corner for pissin and crappin and a corner for sleepin ... now when someone craps in the sleepin corner it can cause a problem..."
[SherwoodK] Well, loss, there's the tenuous position of a site like EPC which exists due to the benevolence of a State University currently in retrenchment, etc. Like, when will they 'notice' and ping us?
[glazier]ahhhhhh i see yooo point
[jdavis] I liked the dialogism of the renga. The newer voices (Rod Smith, Lisa Samuels, Gabrielle Welford) have jarred it to life
[SherwoodK] It sounds like cybertopia; virtual mister roger's neighborhood...
[glazier] yes jordan? (am I lol?)
[boza] No, SUNY will like us when they find out about us, odd as that may seem
[jdavis] Not that it wasn't lively before they showed up.. but the syntax got thornier
[jdavis] Suny will cannibalize it.. theme park.. cb masks and "sophist" tee shirts
[glazier]the problem is -- what neighborhoods are you using as comparison? -- of course yr Mister Rogers is also facetious. I think right now we have a neighbor hood and its working
[glazier](Jordan, can I get a "sophist" tank top instead?)
[jdavis] I think it's a good space. The usual outsider/insider junk is flaming some creatures tho
[glazier]Of course it will dissolve
[jdavis] viz the "integrity/career" struggle
[glazier]Yeah, flaming, there's one problem
[SherwoodK] Proposition: problem with renga is that lines only get added!
[jdavis] Kenneth, no, deletion and revision have been a part most of the way
[glazier]Good proposition, Ken!
[boza] The Renga as a disruption of chat/the discursive, but it was also, in its own way, a different form of chat, as Louis Cabri noted
[SherwoodK] My view is a more agonistic one I guess, that any space their might be now (which is not permantnet) for any thing/issue/peoples, is there and will continue because of luck, force, capital, or evasion.
[glazier]It's true that it was a different form of chat...
[jdavis] fair enough..
[SherwoodK] Well, then, I admit to not paying attention....
[glazier]The problem was say, in this conversation, receiving a transcript
[SherwoodK] But still it's hardly a form open to massive cutting....
[glazier]of the whole conversation each time a new line was added. ..
[glazier]There would've beem a much different reception if ... say a line scrolled across yr screen once in a while.
[jdavis] Cris Cheek and I have both done massive revision.. Cris collated outtakes, reworked
[jdavis] Well I tink it was utopian
*** boza is now known as bozzaa
[Sherwood]What would happen if someone decided to contribute editorially and took the liberty to cut 85% of its lines? I mean, that goes against the basic frame, right...of process and growth, or atleast accretion.
[jdavis] It's happened
[bozzaa] all depends ...
[SherwoodK] hmmmm
[jdavis] is it an issue of respect? or toxic waste
[SherwoodK] exaclty!
[glazier]who was it suggested that it should be mapped as a hypertext
[jdavis] Joe Zitt
[jdavis] or Tom Bell
[glazier]and thus all these possibilities would co=exist: ken's short version,
[glazier]other people digressing here
[glazier]people back tracking
[glazier]but that would be one heck of a hypertext to write
[jdavis] hmmm time/lapse poetry
[SherwoodK] IRC here also has an additive form... now I could cut the log, edit it, and repaste it back to y'all in revised form. But mostly it 'want's' to grow.
[jdavis] well it certainly _seems_ linear
[SherwoodK] Like Whitman's Leaves, it expands even as it revises, right? ] Eryque, you still her?
[jdavis] Ah but Whitman's revisions...
[Eryque] Yep, i'm still here, trying to sort out the different threads!
[SherwoodK] other people digressing here
[SherwoodK] people back tracking
[SherwoodK] one heck of time/lapse
[SherwoodK] an additive form
[SherwoodK] paste it back to y'all
[SherwoodK] 'want's' to grow.
[SherwoodK] seems linear
[SherwoodK] --sincerely, E.G.
[Eryque] Thanks, Ken!
[jdavis] hear hear
[glazier]hear what?
[bozzaa] collaboration has to move beyond respect w/o abandonning it: like conversation, but individuals are bound to take it 'wrong'
[SherwoodK] I wonder how much of typical collaborative sympatico is based on face-to-face dynamics?
[SherwoodK] Though famous examples of exchanges, like Olson Creeley letters, didn't become actual known relationships until later.
[jdavis] the renga as gone private has all kinds of gnarled sarcasms and flirtations
[bozzaa] is correspondence collaboration?
[jdavis] correspondence is coincidence
*** bozzaa is now known as booza
[SherwoodK] Looking back, when "a correspondence" is seen, it's then a collaboration, right? THough maybe often it begins differently, not a working together in any sense.
[glazier]collaboration has to move beyond respect w/o abandonning it: like
[glazier]+conversation, but individuals are bound to take it 'wrong'
[glazier]I wonder how much of typical collaborative sympatico is based on
[glazier]+didn't become actual known relationships until later. +face-to-face dynamics? famous examples of exchanges, like Olson Creeley letters,
[booza] coincidence is not the same as simultanaety
[SherwoodK] Which I guess skirts the question of : does it amount to anything, the yes/no of that giving answer to its collaborativity.
[Eryque] is anyone else getting the message "undernet.org :No such server" ?
[glazier] Not I
[jdavis] simultaneity is pleasant.. to quote Simone de Beauvoir
[SherwoodK] Eryque; if you're reading this, i think you must be on undernet.org
[glazier]Or Simon of the Desert, silently sermonizing
[jdavis] "After thousands of years of civilization, this is all men can think of, to come at the same time as the woman?"
[Eryque] That's what i thought too, but about eveyr five minutes the server send me that message. odd...
[booza] how about an exchange of letters in which you rewrite the others letter: that's .... collaboration not correspondence
[jdavis] that's a hostile gesture
[jdavis] which may be the same thing
[glazier]but it's opposite is worse: an exchange of letters where you IGNORE the other letters
[booza] see: someone always takes it "wrong": it's not hostile if it's whhat you want tod DO
[jdavis] are you sure?
[glazier]it boils down to procedure
[booza] both of you that is
[jdavis] not to be Steve Carll's version of Spencer Selby..
[SherwoodK] Loss, I'm going to ignore you completely in the next line I send.
[SherwoodK] Sorry.
[jdavis] it may be an intenionally hostile act, eh?
[Eryque] And at any rate, I have problem thinking of correspondance as collaboration, unless like booza just stated, the correspondance is mutually edited afterward, otherwise all communication is a collaboration....
[glazier]Or it could be accidental, like forgetting a /
[jdavis] hostility is only one of many responses
[Eryque] ...and to call all communication collaboration is self defeating, no?
[booza] or else poetry is hostile casue it messes up with . m,emesses with, peoples assumptions: no wonder peo[ple are stilso hostile about poetry, poets, inclusiding poets!
[glazier]hostility is a form of conversation
[SherwoodK] Well, in a speech situation, if you believe the scientists, there's all kinds of tuning going on, not simply a sending of messages back and forth but influencing, what might be a kind of working together. It's a form of this sense that let's David Antin,
[SherwoodK] talk to himself, but call it dialogue...
[SherwoodK] Now, is *that* collaboration? (asked ken, promising to be quiet now)
[jdavis] Improvisation in front of a lurking audience is collaboration?
[jdavis] If David Antin were on David Frost..
[SherwoodK] That would be Antin's argument, I think. He does after all 'need' them.
[SherwoodK] He's adapted the procedure to 'radio'
[SherwoodK] once, and he didn't take no 'callers'.
[jdavis] well and that's his interesting divergence from common practice
[jdavis] most people think "poetry which is written when no one is looking is meant to be looked at for all time" to quote K Koch
[booza] it's .. dialogic not dialog
[jdavis] well I like the dialogism of the renga
[jdavis] it's hopeful and malevolent at the same time
[jdavis] most of the time I agree with Koch
[glazier]Perhaps that's why some people were so annoyed, it's not that it's malevolent
[Eryque] then do we define "collaboration" as "active" influence, or can the influence be "passive" and does the influence need to be mutual?
[glazier]active but not necessarily mutual
[jdavis] strong and weak forces of the molecule only communicate the relative masses of the particles..
[jdavis] molecule.. no.. atom
[jdavis] whatever!
[booza] the malevolence is a matter of pride, thouhg, no? we can't give up pride but in poetry it may not be a good lead, may be like lead
[jdavis] the malevolence.. I haven't taken it down to the lab yet
[glazier]but putting your name on a poem is a matter of pride, no
[SherwoodK] Antin: "i knw that i had never thought of myself as doing 'monologues' i mean i never thought of myself as standing in front of people and offering a chain of words impassively generated from somewhere in back of my mouth...
[jdavis] putting your name on a poem is an act of cowardice
*** booza is now known as boopsy
[jdavis] boopsy I like your style
[Eryque] is the audience actively providing an influence?
[jdavis] confide in us your veil
[glazier]unless it becomes boobsy
[Eryque] I'm not sure...prolly depends on the audience! :)
[boopsy] well yes I wrote a book called Veil
[SherwoodK] Luigi is still here, though you can't see him, and he's passively collaborating with me.
[boopsy] we all KNEW that!
[SherwoodK] Active/resistive/passive collaborations, at least.
[SherwoodK] So this has become a performance (verging on collaboration) so the immediate question would be how does it end, as well as 'when' did it begin...and should we edit it?
[glazier]boopsy, are you lifting your veil?
[jdavis] or are you on an islet
[jdavis] The session should end one hundred minutes after it begins
[Eryque] Oh, i forgot about the book...
[boopsy] it's almost 8 o;clock (as in ...)
[glazier]That's ninety minutes
[SherwoodK] THis is always the hardest part
[glazier]well ken, perhaps we should just always give it a time lijmiet.. But what if things were going great?
[boopsy] me, I'm more an irritation than an islet, ask my husband // please!
[SherwoodK] But they are...
[jdavis] lol
[jdavis] Are you... Rod Smith?
[glazier]boopsy is a collaboration ...
[jdavis] Wait, no, I've got it... Jean Garrigue!
[SherwoodK] But the log file has to stop rolling at some point or you run out of tape. That's not to say you can't buy the poet a beer after the show.
[jdavis] was the renga thread really any worse than the Martha Stewart or the Vince Coleman
[jdavis] that is.. weren't we more engaged on the social issues _of poetry_ when we were dealing with the hydrarenga
[jdavis] engaged in, whatever
[jdavis] my preposition manager is down
[boopsy] "boopsie is a collaboration":: that's waht my mother always said
[glazier]a scope embracing diarhenga to hyperenga
[jdavis] as we speak three new rengae are scrolling you all away
[jdavis] speak.. type.. my verb manager..
[glazier]but will some still stay on or ...
[boopsy] yes the Renga did engage the social dimension of poetry and that is why it irritated, since lots of poets either resist that or have their own ideas how it should be displayed
[glazier]is the rule of this channel
[jdavis] exemplum grat?
[glazier]we all get off?
[jdavis] hey, language
[jdavis] or do you mean poets are shy
[boopsy] gotta go. it's been . . . . grand
[jdavis] bye
[jdavis] EXIT
*** Signoff: boopsy (Leaving)
[SherwoodK] ______________________GOODBYE FROM_____________________
[SherwoodK] the
[SherwoodK] EPCLIVE
[SherwoodK] ( Like it or not you've been collaborating in our )
[SherwoodK] Coffee House
[SherwoodK] WE now end our officially end our regular programming day
[SherwoodK] with the singing of "O' Canada." Goodnight and drive safely.
[SherwoodK] __________________20:10 EST /01:10 GMT___________________
*** Signoff: jdavis (Leaving)
[Eryque] Well, I suppose I'll be going now too. have a happy, all! Actually, it's just the three of us, so have a happy tou two. ] Great to have you here ! ...
*** Signoff: Eryque (Homer/TCP was here!) ] Come back next week!
[glazier] ken its just us ] you there ] anyone else there?
[SherwoodK] no just us
[glazier] ok well better let you go ] we should talk about this soon
[SherwoodK] congratualtions... ] congratulations to you!
IRC Log ended *** Mon Nov 20 20:18